Gene Veith today:
Barack Obama will be the next president of the United States. He came across in the debate as presidential and as connecting with the American people. He did so much more than John McCain did. That’s all Obama needed. We might as well start playing “Hail to the Chief.” I’m not glad, but there it is. I don’t see what can stop him. The Age of Obama is upon us.
Tony Reinke 
Unless, of course, enough people realize that Senator Obama is lying about his connection to Bill Ayers. Cover-up, anybody?
I am unconvinced. Most recent national elections have been wrongly predicted based on polling. Nearly all national polls traditionally ask wrong questions of wrong people to arrive at wrong results.
More importantly, God is well able to overcome the desires and plans of mere men in order to accomplish his ends. And though I may not like it, His ends may include an Obama win.
Sadly, I agree with his comments.
We may well be getting what we deserve – a Democratic president with a Democratic Congress able to do the “will of the people” without the checks and balances of the other party. I agree with John that God is in control and we may need a party in control that promotes an anti-God agenda to draw us even closer to God.
Maybe we need 40 years in the wilderness. or maybe He is preparing the world for the coming of the Lord. Who knows, but God the Father.
oh no. not this blog too. this is my refuge from Christian bloggers who feel it necessary to talk Republican politics…
not politics, just facts – 40 million babies attest to it
pro-choice is no more than man rejecting God’s will in Genesis to be fruitful and multiply, not murder babies in the womb – my first filter is the pro-life filter, be it republican or democratic candidates – their stance on abortion tells me alot about their character or lack of character
I have written a post on Barack Obama And the Sovereignty of God . Its at my blog . Check it out.
if i’m not mistaken, this post didn’t say anything about issues or facts, it just assumed that Obama was the wrong choice as opposed to McCain. first, i’m not asking anyone to support Barack Obama, nor did i say that i will vote for Obama. i just assume that when a public figure (even on a blog) shares their political opinion (or their opinion on anything for that matter), they are attempting to influence their readers, and i’m just surprised at how many Reformed Christian bloggers/leaders have attempted to influence their readers to vote for John McCain. the authority we have been given is to preach the cross, in spite of and in light of the political climate. do we have a responsibility as Americans to be involved in the democratic process? yes. do we have responsibility as Christians to work to put an end to things like abortion, genocide, etc.? yes. but if we’re trying to be cross-centered, then unqualified political endorsements, recommendations, and commentary seem quite off center. no offense intended, hopefully none will be taken.
Huh? Are you talking about this post, cameo? All GV is saying is that barring a major turn of events, this election is over. No arm twisting, no arguing, no endorsements, no recommendations. T
i guess my first comment is directed at this post. i was expressing my dismay at the inclusion of political material (which did cast Obama in a negative light, even if it did not necessarily endorse McCain). the tone of the post is one of concession, this coupled with the statement “i’m not glad, but there it is,” left me with the impression that you are assuming here that a Democratic President is not a good thing (whether or not he is the right choice could obviously be argued about all day).
the second comment was a little more broad, addressing the general tendency of many of my favorite Christian bloggers to become Republican outpost leaders in an election year. your blog is refreshing in that it doesn’t normally get sidetracked. i suppose that it was unfair of me to react like this here. however, your post was also interpreted by (obvious) Republicans as saying that Obama in the presidency is not a good thing. even leading Walter to compare America to Israel in saying that we may need “40 years in the wilderness.” or that the election of Obama may be God preparing the world for the Lord’s return (which it may very well be, but you could easily say that the current political/economic position that we are in now, under a pro-life, self-professed Christian, Republican President, plays the same role in God’s sovereign plan).
though I understand why you asked me the question, what brought you to ask the question of me rather than a question to Walter, such as, “huh? are you talking about this post Walter? all GV is saying is that barring a major turn of events, this election is over. no America-Israel analogies. no abortion comments. no endorsements.”
in the end, this is your blog and you are permitted to say or post anything you want. and i’ll keep reading. you won’t lose me as a reader unless you slip into heresy. i just would like to see more care used in the Christian blogosphere as a whole. i’m sorry if i unfairly posted my rant on your blog. much love…
Cameo I guess as a Calvinist, I don’t hide, or feel the need to hide, my interest in politics. I want to see God glorified in all things, everywhere. Personally I don’t think any single issue more challenges justice and the divine image in man than the pro-choice position. So I am interested in politics.
Herman Bavinck says it well:
“Calvin investigated the dynamic of sin more broadly than Luther and more deeply than Zwingli. For that reason the grace of God is more limited with Luther and more impoverished with Zwingli than with Calvin. Here in the mighty spirit of the French Reformer, redemption is not a supplement to creation, as with Rome, nor a religious reformation that leaves the creation intact, as with Luther, far less a brand new creation, as with the Anabaptists, but a joyous message of renewal unto all creatures. Here the gospel comes into its fullness, unto its genuine catholicity. Nothing exists that cannot and should not be evangelized. Not just the church, but also the home and the school, society and the state are placed under the dominion of the Christian principle; and with iron will and irrepressible stubbornness Calvin introduced that dominion to Geneva. So the German Reformation was a reformation of worship and preaching, the Swiss Reformation additionally a renewal of state and society; the one bore an exclusively cultic character, the other an equally social and political character. Everything flows forth from the fact that for Luther the Bible is only the source of redemptive truth, whereas for Calvin the Bible is the norm for all of life.”
-Herman Bavinck, De Katholiciteit van Christendom en Kerk, p. 32.
You may be interested in reading an excellent article, “Natural Law and the Two Kingdoms in the Thought of Herman Bavinck” by Nelson D. Kloosterman. Download PDF here.
Blessings!
T
Interesting comments. I’m not sure how being negative about Obama would endorse McCain. Personally, I think they both stink and have trouble seeing how one could Scripturally justify voting for either.
thanks for your reply Tony. it is interesting that the Calvinism thing plays into our perceptions of politics so much. i too am a Calvinist, however, there are many strands to our tradition. am i right to assume that you are following the Magesterial Calvin, to the Dutch Bavinck, playing into statesman Kuyper? i would tend to emphasize the Presbyterian tradition (particularly its American incarnation). James Henley Thornwell (and to a lesser extent Dabney – you could say Dabney tempered with Girardeau) have been a major influence on my thought on the spiritual nature of the church. i would encourage you to do some reading there as well. Daryl Heart’s book “A Secular Faith” is a helpful (and challenging) read… I think its available through WTS Books
Well, here’s a little William Tyndale for all of you:
“Furthermore though he be the greatest tyrant in the world, yet is he unto thee a great benefit of God and a thing wherefore thou oughtest to thank God highly. For it is better to have somewhat than to be clean stripped out of all together: it is better to pay the tenth that to lose all: it is better to suffer one tyrant than many and to suffer wrong of one than of every man.”
William Tyndale, *The Obedience of a Christian Man*
This is a helpful discussion cameo. When I travel up to Baltimore I enjoy pulling into the Green Mount Cemetery to see the final resting place of J. Greshan Machen. Machen is a hero in the faith for me and few authors have influenced me more. Machen is masterful on calling the church to reconsider the importance of the ecclesiological priorities of preaching the gospel. To move away from the primacy of the pulpit is to move in an unhelpful (a non-Christian!) direction. The church must be centered on the transformation of souls—the conversion of lost souls and the feeding of Christian souls.
But what about when those Christians head back to work on Monday? This is where Calvin and Bavinck really help us to see the ways in which the individual Christian, living faithfully to gospel and obeying the Ten Commandments, will have a transforming effect where they live and work.
As Bavinck says famously, grace restores nature. The same God at work in the church is at work in uniting the entire world into one plan (Eph. 1:10, Col. 1:20) and this will culminate in a restoration of all the things (Acts 3:21). Christ is at work re-creating the Father’s world. This does not give us license to use redemptive language in our social activities. In fact, Bavinck would warn us to remember that this process of re-creation is often done outside of our view and apart from our helping Him. The kingdom is growing like a mustard seed and spreading its influence like leaven in dough (Matt. 13:31-33). The kingdom is growing, re-creation is taking place until the final restoration when He returns to restore all things and every knee will bow.
Men like Machen help keep us grounded on the ecclesiological priorities. Men like Calvin and Bavinck and Kuyper help us see the big picture as Christ is at work uniting all things in heaven and on earth—how this relates to culture, art, politics and my occupation. Both are—in my estimation—important to understand.
Tony, maybe you need to clarify yourself, but it sounds like you’re saying that culture is slowly, gradually getting better and better as the kingdom of God expands.
There is no reason to believe this, but every reason to believe that culture will do the very opposite, get worse and worse.
The City of Cain is not slowly being transformed into the City of God. They run side by side, and, as our Lord tells us, in the last days the hate of the former towards the latter will be everywhere manifest.
The City of Cain will always be the City of Cain. And there are signs everywhere that culture is in decay. The growth of the kingdom and the amelioration of culture are not synonymous, even if they at times overlap.
TB
There remains a clear and helpful distinction between the regenerate and the un-regenerate. Yet there is an influence of the kingdom of God beyond the walls of the church. This is my point. … Bavinck: “Accordingly, the relationship that has to exist between the church and the world is in the first place organic, moral, and spiritual in character. Christ—even now—is prophet, priest, and king; and by his Word and Spirit he persuasively impacts the entire world. Because of him there radiates from everyone who believes in him a renewing and sanctifying influence upon the family, society, state, occupation, business, art, science, and so forth.” This is what Calvin, Bavinck, and Kuyper seemed to understand well.
Tony, this is better put. But let’s think about this question: over the past 200 years in America, has culture gotten better or worse?
The USA today is the largest producer of pornography worldwide, so much so that foreign nations are trying to shut it out, to stop the flow.
If culture has grown worse, what does this say about the influence of the church on culture?
From my perspective, the reality of cultural decay in America helps to frame Bavinck’s words so that we understand them to mean that the impact of the Spirit of Christ through the church upon the world has a decided but not overmastering effect. Accordingly, the church, which pushes back the darkness where it can by God’s grace, often exists in an ever-darkening landscape.
There is good reason why our Lord linked the last days with days of Noah.
It is only going to get worse.
Maranatha!
TB
And do not get me wrong: I am not advocating that we throw up our hands in the air and give up on culture. We must labour by the Spirit to improve culture even as we exalt God for the beauty that exists in culture, but in the end we know we are fighting the slow defeat.
The picture our Lord provides of the last days is not happy. Will he even find faith on the earth?
Grace and peace,
TB
Yes, there is moral decay and it appears this will continue until Christ returns. However we need to be careful to preserve a full picture of the biblical worldview. Christ has been given all things (Jn 3:35) and reigns and has dominion over all things (Eph 1:22). Christ is “God over all” (Rom. 9:5). As Christ rules over the earth presently, he will one day completely eliminate all enemies and all evil, and present the completed kingdom to the Father (1 Cor 15:24-28). “For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.” This is what Christ is presently doing. He is positioned to reign until all his enemies are destroyed. Once the enemies are eliminated (2nd coming) Christ hands the kingdom back over to the Father (v. 28).
I agree with you Tom, that things appear to be getting worse. But by faith I must also recognize Christ is reigning over his enemies with the goal of smashing them all under his boot. His ongoing reign implies the work is not yet complete.
Thanks for this discussion. I find it very helpful to talk of these things!
T
I am in full agreement with you brother. Our Lord reigns over the heathen as He sits above the circle of the earth. Nebuchadnezzar is His servant.
Culture shall finally be perfected at the eschaton. This is my hope as I watch the world unravel.
Tozer hoped that we will read Milton in heaven.
“Lo! He comes with clouds descending,
Once for favored sinners slain;
Thousand thousand saints attending,
Swell the triumph of His train:
Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!
God appears on earth to reign.
Every eye shall now behold Him
Robed in dreadful majesty;
Those who set at naught and sold Him,
Pierced and nailed Him to the tree,
Deeply wailing, deeply wailing, deeply wailing,
Shall the true Messiah see.
Every island, sea, and mountain,
Heav’n and earth, shall flee away;
All who hate Him must, confounded,
Hear the trump proclaim the day:
Come to judgment! Come to judgment! Come to judgment!
Come to judgment! Come away!
Now redemption, long expected,
See in solemn pomp appear;
All His saints, by man rejected,
Now shall meet Him in the air:
Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!
See the day of God appear!
Answer Thine own bride and Spirit,
Hasten, Lord, the general doom!
The new Heav’n and earth t’inherit,
Take Thy pining exiles home:
All creation, all creation, all creation,
Travails! groans! and bids Thee come!
The dear tokens of His passion
Still His dazzling body bears;
Cause of endless exultation
To His ransomed worshippers;
With what rapture, with what rapture, with what rapture
Gaze we on those glorious scars!
Yea, Amen! let all adore Thee,
High on Thine eternal throne;
Savior, take the power and glory,
Claim the kingdom for Thine own;
O come quickly! O come quickly! O come quickly!
Everlasting God, come down!” CW
Grace and peace,
TB
Amen + Amen. Those are precious words, my friend. Now, in light of this, let’s remember the kingdom of our “God over all” is on the move and growing even if we cannot see the incremental growth. “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, till it was all leavened” (Matt 13:33). Come Lord Jesus and complete Your work.
T
good discussion Tony. do you still find yourself with dispensational leanings (as of a few months back that you were working through some things)? it sounds to me like you’re moving in the right direction ; ) …
perhaps i need to read more Kuyper and Bavinck…certainly Bavinck.
I began a process of evaluating the dispensational system as compared to the amil position. I soon dropped my disp leanings. I’m fully amil and loving the depth and riches of the reformed faith like never before. I appreciate the conversation, cameo. Thanks! T
Dear Tony,
To add to our discussion on the world, here’s solid proof why Christian’s must study the best of pagan culture:
Dear Tony,
Solid evidence that it is imperative for Christians to study the best of pagan culture:
TB